Working on Tilt, Bish Bosch and beyond, with Peter Walsh and Hugh Burns
Audio Transcript
Peter Walsh in conversation with Hugh Burns
Today, I’m talking to Mr. Hugh Burns – legendary guitarist, and one of the most versatile musicians I’ve had the pleasure of working with. You can hear him playing on many famous recordings, including Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street, George Michael’s Careless Whisper, and with artists like Paul McCartney, Jack Bruce and many more. And – of course – we worked together on many Scott Walker projects, from Tilt in 1995 to Bish Bosch in 2012.
Peter Walsh The first time I worked with you was on Tilt …
Hugh Burns That’s right.
PW On the album Tilt, in 1995.
HB RAK Studios.
PW At RAK Studios, exactly.
HB That’s exactly what I’ve got as well! Isn’t that funny!
PW Ha ha, comparing notes!
HB So he spoke to me on the phone, before I came in, and he asked about guitars. And he said, I’m looking for a particular guitar sound. Have you got a Fender? I said, yeah, I’ve got a lovely Fender Princeton. He said, Oh no that’s too small …
PW A Princeton amp.
HB That’s a single speaker. I’m looking for a double speaker. I said: yeah, I’ve got one of those, it’s a bit heavier to carry, but hey, I have got one. He said, well bring one of those. And I ended up bringing, I think it was about four or five amplifiers in the end, if I remember. And then we talked about the guitars, you know, he asked about various things: Telecaster? Yep, ok I’ll bring a Telecaster. He said, What other Fenders do you have? I said, well I’ve got a Stratocaster. Oh, well bring that as well. A Gibson? Yeah, I’ve got a hollow bodied Gibson, a 345 … Yeah! Bring one of those… and Les Paul, et cetera, et cetera. So, I brought all these instruments in. And then, when I arrived (back in those days, I used to get somebody to help me with the gear, so the stuff was all in, I had brought some stuff and they had brought some stuff, and we set up the amps) – and he took a look at the way it was all set up, and he said, Okay, he said, let’s hear a couple of sounds. Okay. And I also met his arranger at that time.
PW Brian Gascoigne.
HB Yeah, that’s right. And he gave me some scores. And the scores were quite unusual, because they were, like, orchestral scores. And the guitar part was, you know, one of the staves. And I said, Okay, that’s kind of unusual …
PW So you could actually see all of the instruments on the whole score?
HB Yeah, that’s right. But anyway, so I put up a music stand, and put the stuff up. And I said, Have you got anything you want me to listen to? And he said, No no no, he said, let’s work on the guitar sound. Let’s just hear the amps as they’re sitting there. So I plug into the first amp, and I’ve got the Les Paul on. He said, Well let me hear it. I said, What do you want me to play? - Oh, just a few chords, anything at all. So I’m just strumming a few chords. - Mmmm… Yeah, can it go any louder? So I turn it up a bit. - Mmmm … Let’s try the next one. So, cutting a long story short, we went through these amplifiers, we played them, we tried a couple of other guitars … he settled I think on the Les Paul from what I remember, and I can’t quite remember exactly which amp he went for, but he picked the amp. And then he said: It’s a bit quiet. Is it possible to make it any louder? I said Oh yeah! Of course. - Actually, we could put two in? Because I had a stereo thing going on.
PW Mm hm.
HB And so we did that. And he loved that. He said: Oh yeah, that’s getting somewhere, okay, can you give me a bit more energy in the track? Any chord you like? Okay, well, on the guitar, the one that sounds great always is your open E. So I get the open E and I start and he said: Oh! we’re getting somewhere! Can you play it any harder? And you know, I’m digging in… And he said: Hold on. And we’ll play you the track. And so I’ve got the music up here. And I say, So, do you want me to play this top line? No no no, he said, you just play just what you just played.
PW Right.
HB And I said: Uhhh… but… what about … And I was really, I was a bit lost, you know, lost for words, I said: You mean, just the strumming that I was just doing? It might get in the way a bit? – No no no, he said, it’s going to be perfect!
PW Yeah. I think I remember the name of the song. Pretty sure it was Bolivia.
HB And I put the cans on, he plays it, and – ‘cause I hadn’t heard it at this point, I hadn’t heard it at all – but he liked the energy. And he indicated what it was he wanted, you know. And he said: That’s what I want you to play, across the track. I said: But I’m not sure about the chords, how do I know where to change? – Don’t change!, he said!
PW Ha, ha! Yeah, just … exactly.
HB Don’t change! And I’m thinking to myself, Wow?! This is … something different! He puts the track on, I play through the whole track, and he went: YES.
PW That’s the one! Yeah, yeah.
HB That’s what I’m looking for. Ha, ha!
PW It’s funny, because – the actual setup was really important to him, and the setup started way before we got in the studio.
HB Ohhhh.
PW There’d be loads of messages going backwards and forwards, about: Hughie’s coming in, and what do we need, and as you said, you know, he would have spoken to you about the equipment …
HB Oh, yeah, we would talk about the equipment.
PW So, he was really …
HB Meticulous!
PW Meticulous, and the preparation was just as important as the actual execution.
HB The preparation was incredible. And the thing that impressed me that day was, he had something in his head that was nothing to do with the part, or me listening to the music. And he recognised that when he heard it.
PW I’ve got the clip here, I think this is the one, Hughie – from the track Bolivia, from the album Tilt.
06:08 - Listening to Bolivia clip
HB I think what he was looking for, even more, was the spirit of the thing.
PW Mm. That’s right, yep. Everything had to be a performance, in a way, and you had to almost feel the energy from it.
HB Almost like, as happened in some of the later ones as well, where he was looking for sounds – I remember, he produced a – was she French or German – singer, a young lady ...
PW Ute Lemper. That’s right. Yes, we co-produced that together, yeah.
HB That’s right. Well, and when he called me up to come in for that, he asked me to bring an acoustic guitar. First time he ever asked me to bring acoustic. And he said: It’s a kind of a blues sound. And the minute he said ‘blues sound’, I went into a kind of 1920s-1930s blues feel, that kind of sound. And he said: Oh no, we don’t want any of that! I’m doing the obvious …
PW Yeah, yeah, ha ha!
HB You know, the minute I hear the word ‘blues’, and acoustic guitar, I’m looking at, you know, John Lee Hooker and all of this kind of thing. But he’s thinking something else completely different. It was fascinating.
PW Yeah. Quite often, the actual seed of it would be coming from a particular genre, or even a particular artist. But that would only be the seed. He would kind of distort the actual reality of that and make it his own, you know.
HB That’s correct, that’s exactly right. I have to say – and I guess it’s the sort of thing I could only say to somebody like yourself, who not only worked with him, but you’ve been involved with a lot of other people – I would go so far as to say that I’ve been lucky. I came to London in the early ‘70s, and I had the good fortune of working with wonderful, wonderful musicians. I mean, unbelievable. And it was a complete fluke. Because I joined a band … in Glasgow I was playing in a big band. I played in that for about a year. And although I could read music, suddenly I was reading music every night. Six nights a week! So by the end of that, there was – I didn’t think of it at the time, but it was incredible preparation. But the point of the story, bringing it back round to what we’re talking about: they decided that they wanted to have a small group as well as the actual orchestra. And so they asked me, I got the gig. Out of the blue. You know, would l form… so I got a Hammond organ player who sang, a bass player who sang, and myself. And that formed the group. And out of that, and through people coming to that, I was invited to go join another group and come to London. And that’s how I got to London. I wasn’t thinking I’m going to go to London, I was happy in Glasgow. But the point is, that once I started that, that playing with people, like for example one of the early bands I was in was the Jack Bruce band. And that was with Simon Philips …
PW On drums, yep.
HB Because Simon and I were two of the youngest people in the session scene. It was a much older group of people. And Tony Haimas on keyboards. And we became great friends because we played on so many records together. And so you begin to think, well, this is great – because everyone I played with, I learned more stuff. Simple as that.
PW Sure.
HB But the reason I’m giving you that little background. When I came across – I knew his early stuff, and I loved it. I thought it was brilliant. And actually, I once went to see – it’s very vague, I can hardly quite remember it. I went to see a concert somewhere and he was singing with, uh, it was almost a jazz band. I think it was when the band actually ended. As I say I’m not sure about it. And I thought it was very, very impressive. I was really impressed with it. The band were great, and he was terrific.
PW He demanded a lot from the musicians he worked with. And I think … you mentioned just back there that you were reading music six nights a week, and I think that was one of the things that was brilliant getting you into the studio, because you could read. And a lot of the parts that you were asked to play, actually wouldn’t have made sense.
HB That’s right.
PW You couldn’t actually put a name to some of the chords, the way they were actually put together.
HB That’s true! That’s right.
PW And some were actually constructed out of a couple of takes – you’d play two takes and play different notes in each chord, and we’d build up the chords.
HB That’s right, that’s right.
PW So you had to be able to read it. And then perform it in a way that had the energy. So, an incredibly difficult task to do.
HB He really was going for the feeling, and for the atmosphere. And if the atmosphere was [knocks] knocking on a piece of wood, that was the atmosphere!
PW Exactly, yeah.
HB And so, I think, for most … I knew a lot of musicians who worked with him. And were really … they didn’t know, they couldn’t get behind what it was he was doing.
PW We built up a real trust, I think – he knew how to work with his core team, and he knew how you would react to it, you know.
HB No I was actually thrilled. From that first one, I thought: This is another level. This is something that I’ve never done before. And in a funny way, it was very contemporary. It wasn’t locked into a period; it wasn’t a 60s riff or a 70s riff, or an 80s riff; it was a 2000-and-zillion riff. It was completely unique.
PW I mean, how do you… Out of all the things you were working on, and had worked on, you know, like Gerry Rafferty Baker Street, and like such a wide variety of music you’d have played: Careless Whisper, Jack Bruce, Paul McCartney… Working with Scott, how would you compare that, in a way? Like, how difficult was it for you? Because I remember, a lot of what he was asking you to do, some of the shapes on the guitar, it was contortion in a way.
HB Oh, yeah. True.
PW To actually get the stretch of chords, and have the patience to actually keep, you know, sound searching and … Did you leave those sessions thinking, Oh my god? Exhausted?
HB Oh, no! I was exhilarated! Because I would have discovered something that I didn’t know. Been shown something on the neck that I didn’t know existed there.
PW Ha, ha!
HB So I was delighted with it. And quite frankly, it wasn’t something that you could use somewhere else, because it was unique to that particular niche.
PW Exactly, yeah. And the sounds that we ended up with were always, as you say, very unique, very characteristic. And actually seeing his seal of approval, the smile: ‘That’s it, we got it, nailed it. Perfect.’
HB Yes I’d have to say: he was completely unique to work with. I would have to say that. And his results, you know, the things that he did with the music. He was going somewhere else with it. There’s no doubt about that. I mean, obviously, the way music works, sometimes somebody would say to you: “I’d like you to play a solo on this. And if you think about it as an idea, of this feel and the sound that you’re looking for, it’s a bit like …”, and they’d compare it with something else. Like Steely Dan or whatever. And you’d say, Oh yeah, I know what to do for that. Or: It’s played in octaves, like Wes Montgomery, or whatever it happened to be. So you were given a kind of a …how can I put it… a measure, a measuring stick of the kind of thing they’re looking for.
But the more I worked with him, I got the impression that he knew the atmosphere he wanted to create, and the sound was a vehicle to help create that. That’s my thinking about it.
PW Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And probably because you had played in so many different genres, different artists, you were able to adapt to whatever he wanted.
HB I could adapt, I was good at adapting and things like that, in fact I loved it, because as I said I learned more. I mean, you know, I learned more through playing.
PW Because it was a bit like an artist’s palette, wasn’t it – you’d get the guitar in, you’d have all these different colours you could work with. Different amps, different guitars…
HB That’s right. That is a great expression. Different colours. And he understood that really well.
PW He understood it – he knew: Okay I want a bit of that, and I’ll mix it with a bit of that. And of course, you know, we were working very closely, the three of us together, with Mark most of the time – Mark Warman, the musical director…
HB Mark was lovely. A lovely musician.
PW And I think it was a question of all moving in the same direction, to get those sounds, you know?
HB I think Mark was very good for him. I really do.
PW Yeah. Absolutely. So, I remember, before a Hughie session, I’d be in there, maybe a couple of hours, getting all the mics set, and there’d be a good selection of mics on each amp so we could very quickly flick between different setups.
HB Well, you know that I’ve got some pictures of the studios. And the reason I took the pictures is because I thought, if he likes this, this could be something that could be used again. And somewhere - I’ll try to look them out for you - I have – and it is impressive when you see the amount of stuff that is there.
PW I’ve actually got a great photo of you and Scott together. I don’t know if you remember, at Metropolis?
HB Yes, I think so.
PW You were both in the studio. And if you just want to just move around here … Look. I’ll just show you that. That might bring back some memories, do you remember that?
HB Yes!
PW And that’s recording two baritone guitars, on what was then Flugel Man – a track called Cue. Or that eventually became Cue. Have a listen..
18:52 - Listening to Cue
And just here, this is your part coming in, just here. So you’re playing the higher inversion, and he’s playing the lower inversion.
HB Yeah this is really interesting. Because you can hear the dissonance that’s happening. But the mood that’s created, the tonality, it’s beyond chordal. It’s not a C major 7th …
PW … and there it is with the strings behind it.
HB … It’s very evocative.
PW That’s Derek Watkins playing trumpet. Er, flugel horn.
HB Totally unique. Really, totally unique. That’s a perfect example. He already has in his mind, in his head, what he’s looking for.
Wow.
PW So, as I was saying: could you put a name on that chord? I mean – I have no idea.
HB I suppose, if you sat down and analysed it, you could come up with something - but I don’t think that’s relevant.
PW No, no it’s not.
HB It’s a bit like walking by a stream and you hear the sound of the stream – but the atmosphere is coming from the sound of the stream running.
PW And the other thing I noticed going through this stuff, Hugh, was: that’s the main element of the song. And the song is very long, and that’s the part. And so, that evokes all of the atmosphere. So, you’ve got two guitars – two acoustic guitars – two baritone acoustic guitars! (which you don’t hear so often) – and that’s setting the whole scene. There’s very little overdubs or other things. There’s little effects coming in, but it’s basically, you know, two parts, and that makes up the song and the vocal. And put the strings on. So yeah. It’s a nice piece, isn’t it.
HB Amazing. Funnily enough, the French film that he did the music for …
PW Pola X.
HB Right. There was some stuff in that, where you had I think FIVE guitars.
PW Right. Tell me about that.
HB What was interesting: I suggested the guitarists to him, ‘cause he asked me if I could suggest some people, and two of the people that I suggested were not readers. Great players, but they were natural players, and I explained that to him, I said, These guys, you can’t give them parts, that’s not really what they do. And he said, Oh that’s ok, that doesn’t matter at all. And of course, it turned out – because we did it at Air …
PW Right. Up in Hampstead?
HB Well for some reason he was very keen that we should be set up in a particular way. So they weren’t close. It wasn’t like one guy could look at another guy’s hands, they were quite a distance between them. And a couple of the guys came to me as we were setting up, and they were a bit worried. You know, they were saying: Have you told this guy I can’t read? And I said, Don’t worry, it’ll be ok, just play the way you play, it’ll be terrific. And then he kind of went around, he listened to everybody’s sound, and then he had us all play together. And again, it’s that thing. It’s the atmosphere that is created rather than some kind of rulebook – this chord, or this string, or it has to be played in that way – it was completely beyond that. Another dimension.
PW Yeah. It’s an amazing piece, that, actually. And there’s a link to everything he does. You can hear that certain scenarios that he puts together, he’s not repeating them in other projects, but there’s a consistency, and a link. So when I listen to that track - I think it’s called The Church of the Apostles – and it’s got this industrial kind of rhythm going on, and it’s kind of organised chaos …
HB That’s exactly right!
PW … some of those sounds that he’s using, I can actually hear them, parts of the same atmosphere, in loads of diverse stuff. Like, I remember a cue in Childhood of a Leader, I think it was called Printing Press, where we’ve got this kind of industrial loop going. So there’s a link: he was very consistent in everything he did.
And there’s church organs appearing throughout his career, and sirens, different sounds. I mean, the Pola X soundtrack is beautiful. It has some beautiful string arrangements, string compositions there. And in fact, when you listen to it, it’s exactly – even though it’s a different film, different director, different period – you can hear the same kind of string arrangements, or consistency of how he writes, in The Electrician, or also in Childhood of a Leader, or in Vox Lux, or in other soundtracks that he made.
HB That’s right. I mean, it’s this idea again of creating a mood, and creating an environment that somehow stays with you and helps you to engage in whatever he’s trying to say, whatever he’s bringing across.
PW That’s very true. Creating the mood, and making it possible for those moments to come through. So you’ve got the notes, but it’s more than that that comes through, isn’t it, I think.
Let me play you something else which might jog your memory here.
HB Please!
PW This is another track on The Drift. It’s actually called Buzzers. We had the working title of Faces. But it also shows how subtle he could be as well. So, this is a sound that we used to use a lot with you for atmospheres, like a sort of volume pedal guitar, just sort of drifting in and out. So have a listen.
26:14 - Listening to Buzzers clip
HB Totally original.
PW Yeah. You’re positioning those chords exactly where he wants them, so he can sing in between. He actually knows exactly where he wants those to happen, because we didn’t do the vocal at the same time.
HB That’s exactly right.
PW Also the technical side of things, because, you know, it’s an analogue recording, and there’s Alasdair Malloy’s wonderful water-bell there, which we created by dipping a piece of metal into a bucket of water.
HB Alasdair was lovely.
PW And we did that on Tilting and Drifting at the Barbican live. Dipping a piece of metal and hitting it as it goes into the water, to get the pitch bend on it. But there’s only three elements there: there’s you, Alasdair and the vocal. And it’s analogue recording. So you’re having to avoid all the tape hiss ...
HB Amazing. Yeah. Well basically what’s happening, because of the way he’s choosing to record that stuff, you’re creating something which you can’t repeat. It’s that moment in time, when that was made, that’s what he was after.
PW Yeah. I sometimes think, with sounds like that, a lot of the stuff we did, so meticulously performed and recorded – it’s almost like he was putting a magnifying glass on it, …
HB That’s right! That’s a very good way to think about it.
PW … on the sound. Because everything is so detailed.
HB But also, it’s unique! That’s the point. Like you would never have heard another track using that kind of lineup, let’s put it that way.
PW That’s true. Yeah. And here’s another one in the same song, Buzzers. It’s in the chorus, and it’s the guitar you played. See if you remember this one.
28:57 - Listening to Buzzers clip 2
HB Wow. Haven’t heard that for a long time. It’s so powerful.
PW It’s so powerful. The guitar is so exposed. I mean, if you listen closely you can hear you breathing on it, you know. And, but that was one take, and just the clarity and the precision in how you’ve played that.
HB But also, I was trying to – I’m listening, I’m trying to get that to, where it hits that second part when he’s getting in - that kind of just goes up a notch when that happens. Yeah, that’s lovely. Thank you for sharing that.
PW And you can hear that you’re playing that slightly back on the bridge a little bit, and that would’ve all been tested.
HB Oh, no, no, he would’ve listened to that, and very often he would be saying: Oh have you got a lighter pick, can you move that …
PW Exactly. Actually, I’ve actually got on the track sheet of that one, I’ve got “HB: soft pick, back of bridge”
HB Well there you go!
PW That’s why I brought it up! So there’s all these little notes on the track sheet how you did it, just in case we had do it again.
HB He was very sensitive to those things, so if I was playing the chords that he’d been asking for, then that’d be one side of it, then the next side of it would be the actual tonality of it: where would it be played, how would it be played, what would it be played with, etc. etc. And all of these things have an effect on the overall sound.
PW Yeah. I mean, there’s a really deep bass on that section as well. So there’s just the guitar and the bass. John Giblin, I think, was the bass player. And I think by playing it further back, the chord is not quite as boomy as maybe it would be if you played it right in the centre of the hole.
HB Right. He was very meticulous, you know. For somebody else it’d be just, you know, “I’m moving it from here to here” – but it was a big thing for him, it made a big difference. And John – lovely John – I worked with him for a long, long time. ‘Cause he came from the same town as me.
PW That’s right! Absolutely, yeah, yeah!
HB Passed away a few years ago.
PW Isn’t it funny how three of the key musicians – and there might be more – came from Glasgow. Or came from Scotland, anyway. There’s you, John, Alasdair…
HB Yeah! Good point! I never thought of that.
PW And I’m sure there’s someone else I’m forgetting, apologies if I have. Incredible, huh.
HB Yeah, John was a lovely, lovely player. I did a lot of records with him.
PW Yes. Me too. And of course with the Simple Minds connection as well there.
I’d love to ask you about one track in particular, from Bish Bosch. You played on a lot of tracks in Bish Bosch: a track called Epizootics, 2012. When we were recording it Scott introduced me to the idea of this song as a Hawaiian nightmare. “This has gotta sound like a Hawaiian nightmare, Pete,”, you know. Or at least the intro has. And the sound-set was log drums, and a lot of percussion, and also some slide guitar, and we had BJ do some slide guitar, we had you do some slide guitar.
HB That’s right.
PW There was a story about the ukulele in particular and how that came to be on the track.
HB So, from my memory of it, I had brought in a very expensive, and upmarket, let’s call it, ukulele.
PW Shiny blue.
HB And I played it for him in the studio, and he said, No that’s not the sound I’m looking for. And I was really disappointed, because I had several ukuleles, and that was the best by a mile – at least, best in the way that most people clarify that. But he said, It’s not quite right. And I said, Have you any idea, I mean, could I tune it differently, or could I play it differently? And I tried it in different ways, playing it softer, etc. Sometimes with the uke, you can play them with a plectrum which is made out of material, it’s not made out of plastic.
PW Yep. Like an old sixpence, or something.
HB Yeah and it still didn’t get there … I said, Well, the only thing I’ve got, it just so happens I’ve got an old one lying in the back of the car. And I think that’s when we walked out.
PW That’s right, yeah I remember!
HB And the thing about that, that I remember, as well. I picked it up and I strummed a chord, and he said, That’s it! That’s the sound I’m looking for. And I said, Oh I’ll just tu… No!! don’t touch it, he said!
PW Yeah, Don’t tune it up!
HB Don’t tune it up! Ha!
PW I think you must have done something! I’ve got it here – do you want to have a listen?
HB Yes, it was so funny.
PW This is the ukulele, and I’ve got it in solo, so you can hear it.
35:23 - Listening to Epizootics intro - Ukelele
HB Ha, ha, ha.
PW Ha, ha. That’s it.
HB Oh, absolutely. Cause, what he said – this is what’s interesting – he said to me, Imagine somebody is walking on the sand, just by the sea. Just walking along. That’s the kind of thing you’re looking for.
PW It’s part of this nightmare thing, you know. I guess sometimes, when you have these nightmares, there’s all these different things coming in, and different sounds, a lot of confusion and chaos. So it just makes up part of that scene, you know? But, when I listen to it, it’s actually a stereo recording, and it pans from left to right.
HB Wow.
PW So it IS that person walking the beach.
HB Isn’t that amazing.
PW This is it, with everything, right. And I’ve lifted it a bit louder in the mix so you can hear it.
36:29 - Listening to Epizootics intro full mix
HB Gosh, he was wonderful.
PW Here it comes …
HB Amazing. How he could keep all those things in his head, how he knew… He knew it, as soon as he heard the one he wanted, he knew it immediately, it was like recognising an old friend or something. Quite remarkable.
PW It took quite a long time to record the whole album. It went over a year, maybe even two. I just remember there were a lot of delays. But like you say, he kept all of this inside his head, you know? And used to walk around with it.
HB ‘Cause I remember the lap top idea. He originally said to me that he wanted to use a lap top, and I said to him, Well, your best man is BJ.
PW Oh, the lap steel.
HB Yeah. He’s the best man to play that. Nobody else is even close. That’s my opinion. And he said, But you play bottleneck and stuff? And I said, Well yeah, I do, but I would certainly recommend him. And if I remember rightly, I played a couple of bottleneck things for him – regular bottleneck things, on a regular guitar, and he said, Yeah yeah, he said, That’s very nice but it’s not really what I’m looking for. I said, No I understand…
PW Thank you but no thank you.
HB I said to him, The lap steel is really a different instrument. Because you know, that’s the whole thing about it. And that’s why it’s a very different sound to a guitar. Even though you can tune it the same, and you can make it sound similar, it’s still not exactly the same. But the interesting thing is, because there were lots of gaps – this is what brings it back to my mind – I think there was a gap of about a month or six weeks or something, and I was in the West End, and I thought: Maybe I’ll have a look around and see what people have got. So I went into a couple of the shops in Denmark Street and there wasn’t anything to be seen – most of the companies didn’t have anything at all. And then I went into Vintage and Rare – I used to know the chap that was in there – and I’m looking around, and he said, Oh, what are you looking for today? (‘cause you know, he knew me), and I said, Just on the off chance, that you might have a lap top. A lap top?, he said – Nobody’s interested in those now, I haven’t had one of those for years.
PW The lap steel.
HB A lap steel. And then he said, Oh wait a minute, wait a minute. He said, We had an old one lying around for years, I don’t even know if it’s still there. And he disappeared in to the back. And he came back, and by sheer coincidence that thing that I’m carrying in today is that instrument.
PW Really. Wow.
HB I’ll show you.
PW Is it that light grey, green, dark - Yeah, I remember that one, I remember that!
HB Right. And he brought it in, he opened the thing, and I didn’t even try it. I said, I’ll take it.
PW That’ll do!
HB And the funny thing is, when I brought it into the studio, he asked, Any luck with the lap… And I said, Well, funnily enough, I managed to pick one up, if you’re interested in looking at it? Okay, let’s have a look at it, he said. So I opened it up, and I put it down. And I had fiddled around with it so that I could make some kind of – ‘cause it is a different instrument entirely – so that I could make it sound like an instrument. And as I did it, it wasn’t quite in tune, you know. And I said, Just let me get it in tune… No, no, he said, Play it again? And I played it again. - Can you loosen the strings off a bit? … yeah… And then he did something, he said, Make the fourth string, mmm… THAT tone. Okay. And make this one that. He gave me a tuning, I’ve no idea what the tuning was, I didn’t have a clue. And bearing in mind that some of the strings are already in the original tuning. And he said, Let me hear that. And I played it and he said, Yeah, that! We’re getting there! So he came up with a tuning that I had never seen or heard since or before.
PW Incredible, yeah. And when you listen to it, we were almost collecting all these sounds that were generated from a Hawaiian steel guitar or a lap steel guitar, or whatever. And even then, I was actually sampling them, and putting them half-speed ...
HB Oh, I see!
PW So like the track begins with this rrrrrrrr … thing, and it’s all this kind of pitch-bend and stuff going on. And it’s as you were saying: “I want a blues guitar”, so that’s the seed, or “I want a Hawaiian guitar”, but it’s not. He doesn’t actually want the Hawaiian guitar, that’s where he’s looking. It’s the Hawaiian guitar SHELF.
HB That’s exactly right. How funny!
PW And let’s get all the things out from that shelf that sound like a Hawaiian guitar.
HB How funny that I’ve got that. That’s strange.
PW This is the end of Epizootics, which also features this wonderful, broken-down old ukulele that you brought in. Ha ha! But it’s accompanying – the lyric is “sweet Leilani”. So let’s have a listen.
42:49 - Listening to Epizootics outro
HB Great.
PW I did some research on that, and Sweet Leilani is actually a Bing Crosby song from a 1937 film called Waikiki Wedding.
HB I see! Wow, that’s extraordinary.
PW And it won an Academy Award for Best Original Song. Ha, ha!
HB Oh wow, that’s amazing!
PW Which I - actually, whilst we were recording that, I actually didn’t know that. I have no idea where he plucked that out. He was such a film buff, he would have known, you know. And, it shows his character, that you go through this whole nightmare scenario of this song, with all the sounds, all the associations, the lyrics, everything, and then you end it with this very sweet little ukulele piece, you know.
HB Lovely! Oh, thank you for sharing that.
PW Oh no, it’s great. These things are so … This is what we have left, you know.
HB Amazing.
PW I’ve played you most of the examples I had here.
HB Well that’s great. I’m very, very happy to have taken part. Thank you for asking me. And I think anything that helps people, or gives an interest to people, to explore his music, I think would be a great thing. Because it is totally unique.
PW Absolutely, yeah.
HB Well, great to see you.
PW Great to see you too. Thank you so much for coming in and talking, and sharing all your thoughts with us.
HB Oh, it’s a pleasure, it’s a pleasure. I regard it as a great honour that I had an opportunity to meet him, and to be in the studio with him, and to be able to contribute something to his work. Because it was a lovely thing to do.